Curse

Redfeather1975 · Nov 13, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

That state of the game article needs fisticuffs at the end.
With really cool music in the background.

PureEvilYak · Nov 13, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are basically saying:

"We know players have been wondering for a while if we still have any idea how to balance this game and, well, we don't."

And not once did they mention a single aspect of balancing PvE. Hell, they've practically discouraged class diversity in PvE! Nerfing of Sin skills like shadow form, most paragon skills, and more recently the ranger skill splinter arrow has left elite missions only allowing the so called "grail" classes. And you can't just say "ursan" and assume PvE is balanced... it doesn't work that way. Half the fun of PvE is playing a build that requires an amount of skill. I would like to see some PvE players on Izzy's feedback group.
And yes, I am on the bandwagon that shouts "PvP balances affecting PvE". But to be honest, they have. If you are an Assassin, or a Ranger, or similar, you will find a hard time getting teams for HM unless you are in a guild now, or decide to play ursan. Its a fact, not some stereotype. I don't want to see overpowered skills... I just want to see a bunch of my skills that I can't use in PvE because of their uselessness as a possibility in builds.

Bankai · Nov 13, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by PureEvilYak

And not once did they mention a single aspect of balancing PvE. Hell, they've practically discouraged class diversity in PvE! Nerfing of Sin skills like shadow form, most paragon skills, and more recently the ranger skill splinter arrow has left elite missions only allowing the so called "grail" classes. And you can't just say "ursan" and assume PvE is balanced... it doesn't work that way. Half the fun of PvE is playing a build that requires an amount of skill. I would like to see some PvE players on Izzy's feedback group.

lol

The problem isn't the classes, it's the fact that a lot of players don't realize that a lot of things not in the Holy trinity or ursanway are also good. A mesmer can make a lot of areas a lot easier. But wammos have never heard of mesmers.

tepp · Nov 13, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by PureEvilYak
And not once did they mention a single aspect of balancing PvE.

That is because different designers handle balancing PVE. Izzy balances PvP, and Ensign is a PvP volunteer moderator for a fan website.

If you went to a lecture on particle physics, would you be upset if they did not talk about organic chemistry?

Sab · Nov 13, 2007, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by PureEvilYak

And not once did they mention a single aspect of balancing PvE. Hell, they've practically discouraged class diversity in PvE! Nerfing of Sin skills like shadow form, most paragon skills, and more recently the ranger skill splinter arrow has left elite missions only allowing the so called "grail" classes. And you can't just say "ursan" and assume PvE is balanced... it doesn't work that way. Half the fun of PvE is playing a build that requires an amount of skill. I would like to see some PvE players on Izzy's feedback group.
And yes, I am on the bandwagon that shouts "PvP balances affecting PvE". But to be honest, they have. If you are an Assassin, or a Ranger, or similar, you will find a hard time getting teams for HM unless you are in a guild now, or decide to play ursan. Its a fact, not some stereotype. I don't want to see overpowered skills... I just want to see a bunch of my skills that I can't use in PvE because of their uselessness as a possibility in builds.

Class diversity has more to do with mechanics of PvE, rather than the actual skills. Mesmers see a lot of play in PvP, but much less so in PvE because what they bring to the table (single-target shutdown) isn't terribly useful compared to someone who can just kill whatever's troubling you. Assassins, again, are very effective in PvP, but since they kill things only one at a time, you're better off bringing something that can blow up mobs with AoE. Rangers and Paragons are, and have always been effective in PvE. Whether or not they're wanted in pugs has nothing to do skill balance and all to do with pug leaders who are bad at the game.

But you say you don't want to see overpowered skills. Is having a minute of invincibility somewhat overpowered even in PvE (or infinite, if you bring Mimicry + someone else)? Or doing 1000 total damage per hit with pre-nerf Splinter Weapon? And you say you want to play skillful builds. Perhaps the former requires a little bit of timing, but I don't see how Barraging mobs is skillful.

Ensign · Nov 13, 2007, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Izzy and I 'yell at each other', as he puts it, quite a bit. This particular occasion just happened to be recorded, condensed, and sanitized. Even if the final version does smell of PR and 'what we already know', I'd like to point out that this is at least official confirmation of 'what we already know'. I'd like to remind you that there has historically been a wall of silence from A.Net's official face on these matters. Even with a heavy dose of sanitizer, it's still a move towards more transparency.

We do talk about PvE balance on occasion. It just simply not a high priority, as unlike the competitive community, the PvE community as a whole reviles balance. PvE balance is more a matter of politics; how much community unrest can you absorb for the sake of making the game better? That conflict has made PvE balance very slow at A.Net, where they are very sensitive to the PvE community.

Yichi · Nov 13, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

...I don't see how Barraging mobs is skillful.

because you have to press button 1 for [skill]Splinter Weapon[/skill] THEN button 2 for [skill]Barrage[/skill].... It's not just a mindless 1 button spam like SF was....

Thought everyone knew this

sindex · Nov 13, 2007, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Problem is that there is still a mass majority of skills that need to be retooled, and not just the useful ones either. I mean there has been plenty of threads those skills who have been left behind to their front runners. Yes, some build combinations that can enhance the terrible skills for a more moderate to use. Nevertheless there is just good majority that will never see “the light of day,” because seeing them just makes you turn with disgust.

Age · Nov 13, 2007, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by deank81

Spot on. I couldn't agree more

Yeap and when PvE get the .... of the Stick they say they had it with this game and go else where or go get a real life.This has driven the good players in the PvE community away and has brought out the bad.Passive what about going on the Offensive.3 War,3 Damage dealing Eles and 2 Monks.

wren e · Nov 13, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

splinter with barrage still works great. Cleared UW with my guild this weekend using exactly this and felt really effective.

Age · Nov 13, 2007, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by wren e

splinter with barrage still works great. Cleared UW with my guild this weekend using exactly this and felt really effective.

Splinter Barrage is meant to be done is Solo try it that way.

Redfeather1975 · Nov 14, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Ensign, were there headlocks involved in the unsanitized version of the discussion.

That article's conversation must have been hugely edited.
It doesn't even sound like you two were talking to each other.

ensoriki · Nov 14, 2007, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Izzy and I 'yell at each other', as he puts it, quite a bit. This particular occasion just happened to be recorded, condensed, and sanitized. Even if the final version does smell of PR and 'what we already know', I'd like to point out that this is at least official confirmation of 'what we already know'. I'd like to remind you that there has historically been a wall of silence from A.Net's official face on these matters. Even with a heavy dose of sanitizer, it's still a move towards more transparency.

We do talk about PvE balance on occasion. It just simply not a high priority, as unlike the competitive community, the PvE community as a whole reviles balance. PvE balance is more a matter of politics; how much community unrest can you absorb for the sake of making the game better? That conflict has made PvE balance very slow at A.Net, where they are very sensitive to the PvE community.

Ensign, please clarify todays skill balance on how its good (other than BlS ...buff to lead attacks...nerf to off hand)

im very confuzzled right now....

Lhim · Nov 14, 2007, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

PvE balance is more a matter of politics; how much community unrest can you absorb for the sake of making the game better?

Disturbing.

Making the game better? Some people will agree completely on that, but others will disagree completely. The majority will have a moderate viewpoint. This statement is ,to say the least, disputable.

Firebaall · Nov 14, 2007, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Izzy and I 'yell at each other', as he puts it, quite a bit. This particular occasion just happened to be recorded, condensed, and sanitized. Even if the final version does smell of PR and 'what we already know', I'd like to point out that this is at least official confirmation of 'what we already know'. I'd like to remind you that there has historically been a wall of silence from A.Net's official face on these matters. Even with a heavy dose of sanitizer, it's still a move towards more transparency.

We do talk about PvE balance on occasion. It just simply not a high priority, as unlike the competitive community, the PvE community as a whole reviles balance. PvE balance is more a matter of politics; how much community unrest can you absorb for the sake of making the game better? That conflict has made PvE balance very slow at A.Net, where they are very sensitive to the PvE community.

PvE players are the bread and butter for this game. They are the real player base that "pays the bills". PvP is a SMALL part in comparison (and should be treated as such). Fact is, some people at Anet are treating this game as their pet project.

Stop pissing on the majority, so you can have your "balance" in PvP. Either that, or get the skills seperate already.

Avarre · Nov 14, 2007, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firebaall

PvE players are the bread and butter for this game. They are the real player base that "pays the bills". PvP is a SMALL part in comparison (and should be treated as such). Fact is, some people at Anet are treating this game as their pet project.

Stop pissing on the majority, so you can have your "balance" in PvP. Either that, or get the skills seperate already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Listen up, people. Apparently you don't understand the major difference between the two games.

In PvP, everything is meant to be even so that skill decides who wins.

In PvE, the player is meant to win. No part of the game is designed where the monsters and players are meant to have a fair fight. No part of the game was designed without the fact that players would finish it in mind. This is evident by the rewards for completing a zone, and farming.

PvE player-enemy power ratios are not balanced. They were never meant to be balanced because the player is always supposed to win. Therefore, there is no reason for PvE to be a focal point for major balance changes because there isn't anything to balance around.

The only exception is when abuse of one skill completely warps the use of other skills, which goes against the ideology of Guild Wars (Prot bond, hopefully PvE skills, etc).

Now stop talking about PvE balance like it matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

This has driven the good players in the PvE community away

Um.. such as?

Lhim · Nov 14, 2007, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Um.. such as?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10219743

Just one example. This person posted about leaving. You can be sure there are more players leaving quietly without leaving such a post.

Longasc · Nov 14, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

I am pretty sure Izzy talks with Ensign and then... he does the really necessary things, like buffing Barrage.

SCNR, as if the "bear" would not still be on an uncontrolled rampage.

Not really in the mood on commenting all the changes, it was a fine Wednesday morning till I read the update notes.